December 11, 1989 tape

Below is a transcript of the December 11, 1989 tape recording of the session between Dr. Jerome Oziel and the Menendez brothers.

I did not make the transcript myself. Credit and thanks go to the person who did. I found the transcript in the pinned post of a now-deleted YouTube video of the part of the first trial where the tape was played for the Erik Menendez jury.

I have made about a dozen changes to the transcript, and I may very well edit the version below in the future should I find the need to make further changes. This transcript is not 100 percent accurate. You may be able to discern what’s said in the parts marked as “(unintelligible)”, or you may think you hear words other than those written in this transcript. Decide for yourself what you believe you hear. As Judge Weisberg instructed the jury, the transcript is “to assist you in following along as you listen to the tape-recording. The tape-recording is the best evidence of the conversation.”

In the first trial neither Dr. Oziel nor the Menendez brothers testified about the making and content of the tape. Dr. John Conte and Dr. Ann Burgess were called by the defense to testify about the tape. You can watch their testimony here:

In the second trial Erik testified at great length about the tape both on direct and cross-examination.
Direct examination:
December 13, 1995 – Volume 262 at 43832 – 43848
December 14, 1995 – Volume 263 at 43860 – 43893

January 4, 1996 – Volume 270 at 45279 – 45411
January 8, 1996 – Volume 272 at 45501 – 45617
Link to January transcripts:

The Erik Menendez defense sought to have their expert witness, Dr. John Wilson, testify about the tape. Dr. Wilson would have offered testimony that was critical of the manner in which Dr. Oziel conducted the session with the brothers. The trial court ruled Dr. Wilson’s proposed testimony was not a proper subject for expert testimony and denied the request.
January 23 – Volume 281 at 47490 – 47509

If Dr. Wilson had been allowed to attack the reliability of the statement to Dr. Oziel, the prosecution would in rebuttal have called Dr. Richard Ofshe, who was a consultant to the prosecution and prepared to testify “about the circumstances under which the statement was given, whether or not there was any indication that it was coerced. None of which was true in that particular case, so I would have testified to that effect.” (Ofshe statement)

The tape was also addressed in closing arguments:
Prosecutor David Conn
Erik’s attorney Leslie Abramson

(Last edited: 1/19/21)


Erik: …we thought that, no matter what we did in our life that my father would be there, and (unintelligible) Kennedy, and when Kennedy was president, his father told him that he wanted Bobby in this position, no matter what, what, what John said. And he felt that whether he became a senator, or whether he made hundreds of millions of dollars, it would all be because the father was just an incredible man (unintelligible) and there was no question about that.

Oziel: The other sense I felt, or that I had, is that you felt sort of trapped. I really think that, that, that just, you know, there wasn’t really a family. And you’re talking about a family, um, (unintelligible), but in a sense what’s really wrong with your family is that there wasn’t a family. I mean, um, your, your, there was no communication, there was no closeness, there was no bonding in your family. And, and the only, the only people who had a bond, really, in the family, I mean really, were the two of you. I mean you couldn’t really bond, either of you, with your mom, because of what happened to your mother in terms of all of the, the separation, she didn’t communicate openly and honestly with you and didn’t trust you ultimately, and you couldn’t communicate with her and trust that she wouldn’t tell your dad and trust that she wouldn’t go to your dad, your dad was like the enforcer, and your father didn’t communicate honestly with your mother, and your mother was terrified of your father and would not communicate honestly with your father. Um, the only people that were left to have a bond were the two of you, and throughout, throughout the time, that uh-

Lyle: When he found the first suicide note, that, that created a huge bond there, cause he called me and so on and so forth, and then I immediately wrote my mother-

Erik: I remember that, I found the suicide note and I started crying, I could not read it, my brother was on the phone with me and I started crying.

Oziel: Where did you find it?

Erik: I found it in her drawer (unintelligible)

Lyle: Under a book.

Erik: Under a book.

Lyle: Right there.

Erik: And it said that she, uh, was going to, it said that she was going to, um, kill herself, and that uh-

Lyle: What it said is uh, I, I’m sorry I had to do this, I love you both Lyle and Erik, I love your father, I just can’t seem to deal with my own problems anymore, I want you to go ahead and have the life I thought- I wanted for you and all the things I told you, and uh, I’m really sorry it had to happen this way, but I have to do this, and blah blah blah blah, and at first he thought it was just that my mother was leaving my father. And it was not until I told him that, you know, don’t get excited but there’s a strong possibility that what she’s talking about is she’s going to kill herself-

Erik: Yeah that’s right.

Lyle: …that he became hysterical. Because of course you don’t want Mom to (unintelligible), and now it was, any day-

Erik: Any second.

Lyle: …and so-

Erik: Well, well, well it was also the fact that uh…

Lyle: And at that point I was living alone in New Jersey in the mansion that they had left, and that was a tough time. But then I immediately approached my mother-

Oziel: (unintelligible)

Lyle: and this was really, really aggravating. Well because I was alone (unintelligible).

Erik: Well, well, I think the reason-

Lyle: It was a tough time because it was so far away from what people thought that you couldn’t tell anybody, I couldn’t tell my aunt. What were you going to do about my mother’s suicide, I mean you couldn’t do anything like that and it was-

Erik: The reason why she didn’t, I, I in fact believe at that time, was because she couldn’t…

Oziel: She couldn’t what?

Erik: She couldn’t kill herself. I mean, you can take the gun, and you can put it to your head, but to pull the trigger, it takes an amazing amount of energy, and she was sort of drained from learning about the affair. It was right after she learned about the affair, because I was, I was, I was listening in the next room, and for, and for months and months and months I would have to listen to my mother crying in the house. I would come home, my mother would be crying upstairs, and I would just be watching TV downstairs, and I would just hear the sobbing, and I couldn’t go up and say what was wrong, and-

Oziel: Why couldn’t you?

Erik: Because I didn’t have that kind of relationship. I just never-

Oziel: You weren’t close-

Erik: …I wish I had. And I look back at it now and I wish I had that kind of relationship. But I, I, I remember when we first moved out here and we were living in the condominium right, right, I would hear right through the wall and I would listen about how, how they were about to have a divorce. How my dad was telling my mom that they should not have a divorce. That year, I just strung right through it, and I would listen to her, I don’t- she wasn’t strong enough.

Oziel: What year was that?

Erik: It was the year we first moved out here.

Oziel: That was a few years ago.

Erik: Yeah it was a few years ago.

Oziel: Well, well when you ended up killing your mom, did you feel like you were, did you feel like you were sparing her? And I know she was horribly depressed, and um, she was totally dominated by your dad, she was like a shell of a person, she had no identity or strength left anymore. You had been…I know that you had been responding to her as, as, I think almost like a person who had become sort of pitiful. That’s a strong word, but is that how you felt?

Erik: Well, we were doing, almost in my mom’s case, something that- First of all there was no way, never, could she live without my father.

Lyle: That was something that we had to really- It was a big thing, holding us back, uh, from killing my father, is that we thought that we would just kill Dad and it would eliminate the problem. And uh- See the first step, which is when I found out about the first suicide note and then it got worse and worse but uh, whether, okay I’ll now support my mother, Erik and I decided we would rally behind my mother instead of my father, he could take care of himself, he would understand, he would probably want us to rally against- uh, for my mother. Because all along, his view was, you protect your mother, she’s your mother, you only have one mother, I may be your father, but your father is not as close to you as your mother. And that was his view, and uh, even though I was never as close to my mother as Erik in the early years, and I sort of rallied behind my dad because we had more in common and so on. But uh, so I decided, okay, I’m going to rally behind my mother, and I said, and I had a conversation with her, I wrote her a long letter, saying if she ever wanted to leave Dad and whatever, she could move to Princeton, I’d live with her, she wouldn’t be alone, there’d be no problems, there wouldn’t be any big fight over custody of the children, we’d go with her if she wanted and this back and forth, whatever she wants. And she- That didn’t work because she cut me short immediately, there was no discussion. It was, Lyle, you’re fabricating this- I started out by not wanting to really deal with her problems, I didn’t want her to know I found the note, it wouldn’t be as effective, so I said, I started to go through all the things that aggravated me about Dad, and how he was suppressing myself and all these things and he- she kept saying no, she wouldn’t even let me do that.

Oziel: So did-

Lyle: This is something you’re fabricating, you know that really you bring a lot of this upon yourself Lyle, you don’t realize this and you don’t realize that, and-

Oziel: (unintelligible)

Lyle: …it was just not true. She was the worst psychologist ever. She was not in my opinion, a good open mother like she wanted to be. I felt that, at that point, she was so tainted by the fact that things were so horrible between her and Dad that she couldn’t come out and say, you know, you’re right, I’m having the same problems with my husband that you’re having with your father, and uh, maybe we should talk about it, like a mother should. Even just out of curiosity of wanting to discuss something. She would rather discuss my girlfriends than my relationship with my father, and she was definitely with Dad on that issue. And so it was a dead issue within five minutes. I don’t want to talk about it, nope, you’re wrong, you’re overreacting, you want to leave the family and you want to go off on your own, fine.

Oziel: You had no one to really talk with about it, except Erik.

Lyle: Except Erik, and I sort of just said, alright, fine, she doesn’t want to get divorced. Things seemed to almost get better, and then all of a sudden they just turned for the worse, and I think they turned for the worse w- after she found out that she couldn’t- she had made a decision that- she couldn’t take it anymore and that Dad didn’t love her anymore-

Oziel: Is that the affair?

Lyle: I believe it was after she found out about one of the affairs, like the main affair, that had been eight years long or whatever it was, maybe after she found out there had been more than one. It was some point where she just decided, boom, no way, uh, did he ever love me, I was wrong thinking that he loved me, and he was just doing this because he needed to, and uh, at this point I had stopped trying to help her, so she didn’t have my support anymore. I was, you know, gradually being separated from her because she was no longer, uh, uh, someone I could talk to about anything, anything I talked to her about, talk to your father.

Oziel: Did she actually get angry, bringing up stuff with uh, that was, uh…

Lyle: She was very cold. My mother was always very good in stressful situations, very calm. This was obviously something that was an extreme stress for her, um, you know, if Erik would have walked in the room when she was crying, or when I did, frequently, uh, she would stop crying, I don’t want to talk about it, it’s my own problem, blah blah blah blah-

Oziel: She wouldn’t let you in at all.

Lyle: No. Very matter of fact also, about stressful things. Which would mean, if I started saying, which I would do to try to get her emotional and get her emotions out, hey, you know I’m with you, I think you should leave Dad, he’s crazy, he’s doing this and this to you, it’s obvious, he’s doing this to me, uh, her reaction is, no, I’m fine, there’s nothing wrong with me, I think you’re overreacting Lyle, here’s all the reasons- things that- he bought you this car, he wanted you to do this, he wanted you to do that, he’s a loving father, I don’t know what you’re talking about, I think you should stop talking about it.

Oziel: How angering was that?

Lyle: And uh- what?

Oziel: How angering was that?

Lyle: To me?

Oziel: Mm-hmm.

Lyle: Oh it was extremely angering to me, because she was putting me in a position to defend the things that my father was doing to me, and that wasn’t even supposed to be the issue. It was the things that- I had to get past, first, the things he was doing to me, to get to the things he was doing to her, and there was just no way.

Oziel: You couldn’t even get her to acknowledge that he was doing anything to her, or to you. I mean, she wouldn’t even- You were trying to protect her, and you were trying to say, Mom, we know what he’s doing, and you were trying to tell her that he was doing the same thing to you, and to her, and to Erik, and she wouldn’t acknowledge he was doing any of it, and turned it around and actually blamed you, as if you were angry.

Lyle: Right.

Oziel: And, and she, she basically invalidated all of your perceptions, and everything that you knew that was going on, she told you wasn’t happening, got angry at you, blamed you, turned on you, and uh, you ended up trying to protect her, and getting punished and rejected as a, as a person, and getting told you were a bad guy, when really what you were trying to do is save her from what your dad was doing to you and your mom. Yeah? That’s what I’m hearing.

Lyle: It, it’s, that’s it, and uh, I didn’t try, as much as I wished I would have tried. I didn’t know a lot of it, I found out a lot of it later on, I found out more and more and more, and, in my opinion she had gotten worse and worse and worse. And uh, but for a while I was traveling so much, I was away from the picture, I’d only hear about it from Erik. Oh, my mom- Mom freaked out about this. Oh, Mom burst out crying about this, and mentioned Louise again, and couldn’t trust Dad here or there. And uh…

Erik: (unintelligible)

Lyle: My reaction is, I don’t want to be involved, it’s a situation I can’t help. And uh, I, you know, the alcohol, uh, the drugs, she would bring up to me. It was a sign that it was getting worse. And she would finally come to me and go, you don’t understand how much stress I’m under, I take 13 pills a day, I drink, uh, you know, be careful about this Princeton issue or whatever, I’m not handling it well, I don’t want to hear about this or that. And uh, you know, but there was no way I could open up to her about the real issues, uh, just, uh, I knew that she was seeking help and I was hoping that it would help. (pause) I mean, from my girlfriend reading the letters that I found afterwards, and before, uh, her conclusion, and seems to be a lot of my relatives’ conclusion, is that my mother could possibly have staged the whole thing and killed both of them herself, because she was unable to kill herself, and uh, so she had somewhat- she just said okay, kill us at some point. And that’s their feeling. I mean obviously they’re not gonna know what happened but uh, uh, I could see how they would believe that, reading those letters. Uh, you know, I kept thinking it over, almost as if it was true, almost as if I was like an instrument of hers in killing herself. That’s where we sort of feel, like you mentioned before, that we were doing her and us a favor in putting her out of her misery really. And that, she could kill herself at any moment, and our reaction was we knew that if she killed herself, my father was in trouble. We would physically not be able to handle that, because she was really a helpless victim. And we saw- I, I saw her going through her own-

Erik: If w- I had it in my mind that, that, I would, I would be at a turning point. If my mother killed herself, I would hate my father for life. And there would be just no point about it.

Lyle: And I didn’t know how my mother could live with it because- and I tried not to think about it. Thinking about it is a very painful thing, and I don’t have dreams about it now, and I don’t think about it now, but it’s a serious sore spot, my mother, and that whole issue, because, you know, even if I think about it for a moment I say to myself…(pause)…Dad was having an affair the whole time he was saying he was out at work- out late, uh, working, and she was at home, bearing the fact that she couldn’t be with her husband, they couldn’t go to the dinner parties and so on, to take care of his kids and do all the things he wanted her to do, and she worked like a dog doing that, thinking she was helping their relationship for a better time. And then he would come home and say he’s tired from working late and therefore he didn’t want to go to the dinner parties, and she would cry about that. But she would have, she was- Her strength came from the fact that he was doing it for the family and for her, and so she was going to sacrifice, and then she realized that the 20 years of sacrifice was for nothing. He was fooling around with other women and so on, and that her whole basis for being able to go through it all was, uh, really a falsehood. And that I could see how, boom, you want to kill yourself. Can’t handle it. My whole life is a waste. I’ve wasted all these years, I could have been something. Our, our feeling is, she would tell us about all the things she could have been and done and couldn’t, because Dad, she told us Dad gave me an ultimatum. Take care of the kids and stay home and forget the acting and the hostess job that you were offered and all this other stuff, or I leave. And that was my dad’s general feeling, uh, when she was crying, which was, hey, you know, I want my life the way I want it. If I have to do things I don’t want to do to satisfy the marriage, that’s not the way I want to live, we’ll go our separate ways. And my feeling was very strong, it’s not the way it is. I told him flat out, you know, you make sacrifices in order to have a relationship, you make compromises, the whole point of a relationship. You’re each not going to get exactly what you want, so you try to come to- you know, you go to a dinner party even if you don’t want to because you haven’t been able to go to one because you’ve been working late. It was not his feeling at all that he should do that.

Oziel: How did he respond to that?

Lyle: He responded by saying, well, I’m not prepared to do that, my feeling is that you have a relationship, one person controls the show, if I have to do things I don’t want to do, even the smallest things, then I don’t want to be a part of the relationship.

Oziel: So it was his way or no way.

Lyle: It’s his way or no way. And he did that, and he was smoking a cigarette, and I remember the scene very well back in Pennington. And I was shocked by the statement, because I realized there if I pursued it, it could lead to divorce. If I pursued it, and um- his feeling was he would rather have a divorce than work out even a small thing like a dinner party, to me, it was amazing.

Oziel: He had to have total control, or he wanted a divorce.

Lyle: Yeah.

Oziel: And, and, is that what you were-

Lyle: And he thought that it worked best that way, that that’s what kept the relationship going, was that one person knew that this person was in control or it was over.

Oziel: Do you think you- Do you think he believed that, or do you think he needed to have that total control and she sort of justified it with the- those kinds of statements? How much- how much did you feel that you were killing your dad because of what he was doing to you each, and how much did you feel you were killing your dad in part because of what he did to your mom, and what part was each?

Lyle: It was- It was not because of what he was doing to me, because I had already decided and had pretty much splintered off from my family, uh, and tried many times- I had decided at one point I don’t want another cent, I don’t want to have anything to do with it, I’d try to be self supportive, uh, I’m going to marry this girl and go have my own life, and uh…(pause)…and it was, it was my mother actually telling me, okay you do that, but it’s not because of what your father is doing I want you to know that, that would anger me and bring me back in to help her out, because I realized she was so disillusioned and fucked up over the, the whole thing that she would actually think that. If she would have just said, you know, I realize it’s really strenuous, your dad is really doing all these things, it’s terrible, I agree with you, maybe you should go off and do your own thing, it would have been a lot easier for me to do it. I needed her agreement that there was a problem, and-

Oziel: She’d never hear it-

Lyle: …it was not. And, uh…I didn’t think about it for a long time, until Erik and I would get together, and we would share what was happening in the family, and uh…uh…it was obvious my mother was deteriorating. We didn’t want to get to a point where my mother kills herself, and my father- we were left to deal with my father. That would be too hard on us, almost, because, you know, I- I wouldn’t want to- it would be hard on my father, and yet I couldn’t let him get away with this, with what I would consider a murder, that there was no way anyone would ever find out about.

Oziel: Mm-hmm.

Lyle: And, uh, so…uh, for my, for my mother’s sake, I, I felt that uh, we did it. It was- We had- kind of like I was saying before, we had to make a decision. It was one of the harder ones, and it was a separate issue. These are the reasons my father should be killed, there’s no question, what he’s doing is- is impossible to live with for myself and for-

Oziel: Which was what?

Lyle: …myself based on what he’s doing to my mother. And uh-

Oziel: Which was what? What, what was- what were the things that he was doing, I mean it’s obvious to me that he was doing all kinds of stuff, from totally controlling everybody in the family, being completely cold-blooded about, about the decisions, uh, considering everyone as sort of an instrument of his own will, and there’s a lot of stuff that your dad was doing, uh, including talking about disinheriting, uh, uh, you or actually having said that he did disinherit you, I guess at a couple of points, um, but-

Lyle: Well that didn’t enter into it too much, because I, I felt like Erik and I could handle it. That he would expect us to handle it, and we would- you know, uh, we were, we were strong and I- I still felt he was an ideal father for the longest time, because I felt like, our dad can’t be with us, and he’s strong, and he’s overpowering, but he gives us advice, fathers who are friends to their sons, in his words like wimpy, uh don’t give. And he teaches us to be a man, and almost that he had raised us to be able to handle doing this thing that was necessary and that we could deal with it better than any other 18 or 21 year old could. Because he had trained us like basic training, my 21 years was a basic training course-

Oziel: To do what?

Lyle: How to- How to survive. And how to do what was necessary.

Oziel: To survive by- by living without him or by killing him?

Erik: By surviving- without him.

Lyle: By living without him. And that, uh, uh…

Oziel: Because you had- never had lived with him anyway. I mean you would never- you never had that father-son closeness anyway. There’s no, there’s no, he had trained you mainly by, by being a disciplinarian, and being tough, and not by having a loving bond with you.


Lyle: Exactly, I mean-

Erik: Well to survive without having to-

Lyle: I felt the bond though, you know, I mean, I felt like I- I would go back and forth as to whether I was closer to my mother or my father, and when I really started to see my mother’s problems I’d be much closer to her and I’d hate my father, and then I’d get away from that and…uh, when he had the uh, problem, the heart conditions and so on, I, I went in and I spent- and I watched the Super Bowl with him, and we were close. And after the Calabasas issue he cried, and uh, and we were together and uh, we were close. It was the first time he ever cried in front of me, and he felt much more uncomfortable. I used to feel very uncomfortable and cry whenever he told me he loved me because of the usual thing, and I couldn’t handle it, and- because we were supposed to be man to man and he would say that. He would say it matter of factly with no emotion and a father should have, and I could not talk to him about anything, concerning anything emotional without getting too emotional myself. And then it changed and he became the one that- as I became more comfortable with it, I could bring up the fact, you know, I love you and I’m doing this for this, and he could not handle it. Couldn’t talk to me about it, didn’t want to deal with anything like that, because it became a genuine emotion. If I expressed a genuine emotion he would close up and it would have hurt him. Like it would be a chink in his armor that would just- he couldn’t withstand it. And uh, he cried after the Calabasas issue after I said that uh, you know, Erik and I were very sorry and you know we’ll deal and uh, and I’m sorry for all that trouble that you were caused through this whole issue, and uh, uh, he cried, and uh, he felt for everything. And I think he cried a lot after the Princeton issue, and I came to him and said this and that. But with me it was very cold, that crying I never saw. He would be very upset if I saw him crying and he would say men don’t cry. And uh- So it came down to that decision and we decided that uh, my mother could not live without my father, and it was it was sort of, uh, nice for me to hear my cousin Sylvia-

Oziel: Why did your dad have to die? I mean I know for your mom, why she had to die. How about for the two of you, what, what, what- it’s clear to me how much he totally controlled the two of you, and it’s also clear, he was- When he’d talk about you when you weren’t here, he was very, uh, he was derogating about both of you in different ways. I mean, he would be judgmental of you in one way, and judgmental of you Erik in another way, and it was real clear that, that at the same time he was saying he expected you, quote, to be men, that he was treating you as if you were disappointments and that you weren’t strong enough, and that you were weak in one way, and you were weak in another way. And I don’t know if that came across and- I mean if that was part of what you felt in your relationship with him that you could never be good enough, you could never do it-

Lyle: Oh sure, he even told Erik that the Calabasas issue and the way he handled it, he handled it terribly, if he were in charge of it he could have handled it way better than Erik, he made all kinds of mistakes, and you don’t know how to do that either.

Oziel: …and so it wasn’t, it wasn’t even so much what you did, it was more that you were, you were stupid in how you did it.

Lyle: Right.

Oziel: You did it in an inferior and incompotent way-

Lyle: Well I still don’t think it had anything to do with- Killing him had nothing to do with us. It had to do with me realizing a number of things that all culminated, which was- and could have culminated at any point. And it was just a question of Erik and I getting together and somebody bringing it up and us realizing the value in it. Uh, which was…(pause)…My father had this dream of now going into politics, and it was becoming apparent, and it was- my mother would not be able to handle that. She had expressed over and over again how that would be the worst thing in the world for their relationship, he would- what she wanted was for him to get away from his business and his (unintelligible) life with business and stressed out and all these other things, and just sort of retire with her and be with her and get to know her. And if he went into politics she would again be that shell of a showcase for him, and he would be boom boom boom be very busy, it would be time consuming, and be- that would be his new love, politics, instead of business, instead of her-

Oziel: Instead of an affair.

Lyle: And uh, and it would be his sort of affair, really. He- He had almost- I felt like, and now I feel like, he had given up women and taken up politics. It was his new affair, just something that would be his, his passion. I mean his passion is what- very passionate man, but not with her. She had expressed in her letters there’s no passion.

Oziel: Mm-hmm.

Lyle: And uh and yet on the outside, everyone thought that their relationship was all passion, all-consuming, and it was crazy. But uh, my feeling was that- with him deciding to enter into politics, uh, it was her doom. It was over. There was no escape, and Erik and I were getting- he was on the verge of going to UCLA-

Oziel: No escape from what? (pause) When you said no escape, from what?

Lyle: No, no escape from uh…uh, being separated from my dad in an inanimate…environment…or in a relationship where she had no identity. And uh, she was being uh, battered. And uh…and he had taken- she at least felt comfortable in Princeton, New Jersey. And he knew that, and she had her friends, and she had a bonding and a relationship and she was busy, and he took her out of that and brought her to California and Erik and I knew it was devastating for her. I mean it was, it was really her death there, and if he went into politics it would be another one, and it was just one blow after another, because moving to California was just the worst thing in the world and he knew it. And uh-

Oziel: For him? For her?

Lyle: For her, for her. For him it was great, he didn’t care, it was just his continuation of his career and this and that and his wife was obviously going to go with him, there was no question. He made a thing where he would fly back and forth to New Jersey because he realized that this was a serious thing, his wife might not be able to handle this. I think he realized that. Uh, it was obvious that he was very careful, Kitty you’re gonna love it here, come on, and Kitty was very sincere about the fact- I don’t even know why she left. If there was a time for divorce that would be the best time to pursue it because she had a real bond there, there was a real emotional breakup with that community and her, and she had never had a friend out here, had one friend or whatever and never really saw her that much, and she never inquired into tennis lessons or leagues or community things or- Nothing. She got involved in this house that Dad was building and that, that was it.

Oziel: The one in Calabasas.

Erik: When we were trying to push her into those kinds of things and she- for some reason she would just-

Lyle: But she would say no, there’s not enough money, I have to spend it on-

Oziel: What did you try to push her in to, your mom?

Lyle: She had b- She believed-

Erik: Community activities.

Oziel: She was probably too depressed and felt too powerless.

Lyle: She was too depressed, and yet she- but she also, it’s an interesting thing Erik just brought up, uh, she believed, Dad had her convinced, and it was an amazing day when this happened, that they had no money. That- He had her convinced that they were poor, because- and that she could literally not afford to take tennis lessons and do different things for herself and buy herself nice stuff and ever get a leather jacket that a couple hundred- I was buying leather- 100 dollar jackets on the allowance I was getting easily, and she said she couldn’t afford one, she wished she could get one. And I remember a day when I said, come on Mom, because I bought something, how can you say I can’t afford this when Dad just got a stock bonus of- worth six million dollars. And uh, and she said, and she had no, and, and his salary is the remaining three. And she had no idea. She said what stock, what do you mean, his salary is three hundred thousand, or whatever it was-

Oziel: He totally controlled her, and he would keep-

Lyle: …and she said how do you know that? I’m not- that’s not true. And uh, because we’re cash poor, cash poor. And I was shocked, and I said I knew it because I worked with the company and it was right in the stock letter, which I was, uh, didn’t read, that said he got this much stock. Sure his salary was three hundred thousand, five hundred thousand, but his bonus every year was eight fifty. She had no idea, she had no idea. And she didn’t know about the life insurance thing that came afterwards, so I realized that he was withholding a tremendous amount of financial information from her. My feeling then was, well it’s obviously in case they get a divorce he doesn’t want to know- her to know what he’s worth, but that enabled her to never buy anything, never do anything creative like that.

Oziel: You see, when you said that, I think you’re right about that, but there’s another part of it which is that it also enabled him again to never allow her to have- I mean your father was a totally controlling man, which meant that in their relationship, like you said, he needed to make all decisions, he needed to have her completely subservient, he needed to continue to take all the will out of her, all the identity out of her, so that she’s basically nothing but an extension of him, and a shell of a person so- One way of controlling somebody so that they never develop any sense of identity, you don’t, you don’t- you tell them they have no money, they can’t buy things, they can’t have the ability to go and do community activities, they don’t have the mind to go out and develop an identity. It’s a way of keeping total control over someone, so it wasn’t only controlling the flow of information, but by telling her that they had no money, it was also a way to keep her totally imprisoned, and, and, and totally unable to develop any strength. You know, if she had a sense of money, she might have also had a sense of freedom. She might have also had a sense of being able to leave, to get away from him, to escape him. If she had a sense of no money, and no power, and emotionally she was really stripped of all of her identity, then he would put her totally under his control. Which is, which is real clearly, um what I think ended up happening with your mom’s side. I think you’re right that your dad, in case he got a divorce he didn’t want her to know how much money he had, but I think even more, your father’s whole inst-


Oziel: …to uh, to just completely control you, you- use money and power to control you, to use money and power um, to control you, um, Erik, and to use it absolutely to control, uh, your mom, and- I mean, isn’t that really- isn’t that really after all, isn’t that what it was about, killing him? I mean, wasn’t it about the amount of absolute control and the ruthlessness in terms of just completely, almost being like an automaton, it was focused on, on- I mean it’s like- Do you think your father had any sense of what he even was doing to your mother? Or do you think that your father basically was so much on automatic pilot in terms of being focused on control and domination that you- did he not care, or do you not know? What do you think? Erik, how about- how about you saying something here. You haven’t said a whole lot, what do you think?

Erik: I just don’t like hearing it.

Oziel: Well what does that mean?

Erik: I don’t like hearing it.

Oziel: You don’t like hearing what?

Erik: I don’t like hearing these things about my father.

Oziel: Okay, what are you feeling?

Erik: Upset.

Oziel: And?

Erik: Hurt.

Oziel: And what?

Erik: Well I had pushed them out of my mind. And, uh, my father and my mother were…were two people that I loved and…I just don’t want to hear anything about it. (pause) It doesn’t matter what they were or what they actually were. I- whether it’s a fantasy or if it wasn’t. Um… I, uh, I- they were very apparent in my mind before this, and led up to the fact where I had no choice. I would have taken any other choice, uh, because I, I look back on this and realizing what people are worth and so on. Uh, I much regret it. I may not have had a choice at the time, but I regret it now and I simply don’t like- I like- dreams that I had um, when I was 14 or so, and you know, I had a mother and father that loved each other and loved me, and we could have that kind of relationship, and I try to bring that back in my mind (unintelligible) and I like it. And it’s simple (unintelligible), and I don’t like hearing my father put in this sort of way.

Oziel: It’s too painful?

(long pause)

Erik: He was somebody that I loved and almost had no choice to do what I did and…(pause)…I hate myself for doing it. And uh, I understand why it was done, but somehow (unintelligible) because (pause) because of the love that I had for him and my mother. And how there was such a misconception in the family, no one else, and no one understood, and how- having to listen to the fights, and uh, and simply the yelling and the screaming and all that was taking place downstairs and uh, and finding blood on the bed (unintelligible) I just tried to rationalize it and uh (pause) I break down once in a while because I, it’s really, it’s difficult, I only- I love my father, and I’ll never love anyone like that, and, and it’s more difficult because of my mother, because I realize what an amazing tragedy her life was compared to what it could have been, because of my father, and I hate him for that, and I love him. And uh, it was something that, uh, was beyond control and-

Oziel: What was beyond control? That you had to kill him?

Erik: Eventually it had to happen. It was basically ruining my life, and I guess Lyle’s. And…and…and he was putting my mother through torture. And it got to the point where…where…it, uh- He was amazing. He would do great things for me and, you know, I wouldn’t understand why. I know that she loved me, somehow, but he just-

Oziel: Couldn’t ever tell you or show you?

Erik: No.

Oziel: I was there, I remember- I remember when your mom called and uh, called me and told me that your dad was disinheriting you because you- he really didn’t like how you were behaving that day and he wanted to be respectful about it. He couldn’t tell you because you never talk about feelings and he wouldn’t talk about feelings. And, you know, I remember telling you that and you didn’t even look that surprised, and that must have been what your dad was like.

Erik: I’m just- I’m sad because I look back on my life now with my parents, and I wish it would have been such- so much more different. I look back and I wish that my mother and I would have had an extremely close relationship, and I would tell her everything that ever happened over- I would tell her everything, about all my relationships with different people, and everything she wanted to know, and, and, I, I was raised that I couldn’t tell her, and that she couldn’t (unintelligible) with me, and, and I wish that I had a closer relationship with my father. The dreams that I have and-

Oziel: You couldn’t be close to either one of them.

Erik: No, I missed it, and I didn’t get a chance to. From an early age, I was, I was just taught (unintelligible) and you just don’t.

Oziel: You just don’t what?

Erik: Have a close relationship.

Oziel: You just don’t talk about feelings and what’s going on.

Erik: Exactly.

Oziel: Did you ever try to tell your mom or to talk with your mom about what your dad was doing?

Erik: No, I uh, I couldn’t face that. I left that up to my brother, I couldn’t face that. That actually I told my brother over the phone, and he handled it. I couldn’t. I didn’t want to face it. (unintelligible) but I knew that if my mom had died I would have to leave, I would have to leave and uh, and it didn’t matter because I always thought that I could, I could make all this (unintelligible) and it wouldn’t make a difference. And I, I- leaving wouldn’t be a problem. I would have to do it and I couldn’t live with them anymore and all of it. I guess I was taught to love him because it was your father and because I wanted to love him. And, uh, and (unintelligible) face the fact that, that my mother had to be killed and it was the only way out, the only way out for her. And that’s why she cannot even face it (unintelligible) because it’s, it’s, if you would have to face that, and understand that, it would kill you, because it was just, it was just so sad. And, and uh (unintelligible) I’m pissed off that he was like it, and in other ways I’m glad that he made me such a strong person, but (pause) I really can’t say whether I would have wanted another kind of father. He pushed me in many different ways, and I have all kinds of dreams about it, and uh-

Oziel: What kind of dreams?

Erik: Dreams where, where I had, instructed, uh, two of my friends to shoot me, and uh, and they wouldn’t do it no matter how hard I tried to convince them, so I took the gun that was in my hand and shot myself several times in the heart and then, uh, and I died and there was a moment where there was this immense pleasure, and I was happy, and there was no tension on my mind, there was no stress, and everything was calm, everything was great. And…and then I woke up in the morning and I was upset that I was alive because it would be great and uh, that I was no longer alive.

Oziel: What kind of feelings were-

Erik: It was the feeling that there was no more pressure. And there was no more sadness to be had. And that you no longer had to feel sad about your parents. And because (unintelligible). I guess one of the hardest things about it is that everyone now, they don’t know the truth and they can’t relate and that’s, that’s difficult.

Oziel: They can’t relate to any of the feelings you had.

Erik: Exactly.

Oziel: There’s so much pain and, and, you know, uh, it’s so clear that both of you are relating to the knowledge- not so much to the pain that you had in being in the family, although there was a lot of pain there, you both knew you could escape that. You were about to go away to school, Lyle, you already were away, but the pain of knowing that your mother was going to be left behind and victimized, and that she was so defensive and protective of your father that, even while she was being totally destroyed by him, that she was blocking absolutely your- even your love for her, and you’re trying to help her, especially you Lyle-

Erik: Well-

Oziel: …trying to talk with her. If you- you were, you were blamed for it, you were loving her and trying to care for her and instead you got blamed for it and there was an active denial of what was happening. And you knew the pain she was in, and you saw her totally deteriorating, and I mean it’s almost like your love for your mother was- and you’re- the pain with her getting just totally brutalized over all those years was- like it was a lot worse than the pain you went through being in- being with your dad.

Erik: Well-

Oziel: You thought you could deal with your dad more than your mother, your mother couldn’t deal with your dad. Your mother had no courage with your dad.

Erik: About going to college, I mean, it didn’t matter. Even if I was in college, I know when I was in college I wanted to uh, to uh, uh, uh major in that- in theater and my mom wanted me to major in theater but couldn’t tell me that, because she was an actress and she was a great actress and uh, so she had this lovely date when she saw me on stage once at Beverly, she, she loved it and she- and she wanted me to major in it but I, I couldn’t even bring it up to my father. Um I, I did once and it wasn’t- like he thought I was kidding, it wasn’t even something that was going to be even brought up, and my mom deserves another thing though and so- what I was doing, what I was taking, I wasn’t even going to decide. It was- my courses, when I had an hour to select my courses, I, I would already have the sheet and already have it worked out and my dad would have already worked out what I was going to take. And so, there was freedom in my life but- my life would be structured and I would have freedom outside of the structure. And, and, I mean, signs, signs of pain, I mean, Lyle and I definitely had different kind of relationships with our parents in different, different ways, and certainly dealt with it differently, um, like I got scared. Uh, with Lyle, um, I wasn’t sure what he- Lyle and I really didn’t talk about how, how each other was feeling that much after, after this all happened, and uh and we talked about getting man to man about our feelings and- he probably relayed it to more than just me, and we weren’t supposed to, and my parents didn’t, and uh, he told me that he was very depressed and so on. And uh, I didn’t know it because, you know, we didn’t talk about it. He was just showing his feelings very different from mine, he wasn’t as open about it, and uh, and I got worried. You know, what does depression mean to Lyle, and could that mean, you know, he’d kill himself, and uh, and I cried about that one for a while.

Lyle: Yeah that’s true.

Oziel: Did you ever tell Lyle that before? Is this the first time Lyle knows that?

Erik: Yeah, he knows- I don’t- I’m his brother-

Oziel: Why don’t you look at him and tell him that you were really worried about him? Erik? Erik, no, no, come on, look at him, tell your brother. Erik No, no. No, no. Don’t keep ducking this, come on. This is what you’re trying to undo that happened.

Lyle: I mean, he told me the story, I know.

Oziel: No, but he needs to tell you.

Lyle: No, I mean, I know.

Oziel: Well- let him do this, he needs to do this. And you know what, this is part of your way of undoing what happened in your family. Erik needs to express his pain his way, and he needs to tell you how much he loves you and how concerned he was for you. It’s real important. I know you step- you stepped in to sort of save him, but you know what, the best way for him to really be able to save himself, and for you to get closer and to have that contact, is for you to be able to talk the way you couldn’t talk within your family. Why don’t you- Erik, can you turn toward Lyle and tell him what you’re feeling? You can do it.

Lyle: There’s no reason to.

Oziel: Yeah there’s a lot of reasons to. Come on. This is what it was all about. The reason this was all about- what this was all about, was you not having done this in the end, but for you really to get to the place where you can deal with your feelings and, and not be a prisoner of whatever happened. And so yeah there’s a reason.

Erik: Well-

Oziel: Did you love Mom?

Erik: …we, we express each other in different ways.

Oziel: No, did you love Mom?

Erik: Yes.

Oziel: You told me that between the two of you if one of you was going to die you’d rather you die, and that Lyle live, is that right? Is that right?

Erik: Yes.

Oziel: Why are you crying?

Erik: Uh, he didn’t, didn’t know about it, which, which…

Lyle: I agree that uh, that uh, Erik and I need to…our whole family worked behind closed doors, just like politics, and uh, that’s one of the things, his love for politics, it was all a closed game. And we still play a game that uh, you know, I wish I was very close to Erik and we made all our decisions together and when it came to his life he came to me first, because-

Oziel: I remember how hurt you were when Erik told me what happened, and, and I remember the hurt and the pain, that he didn’t talk with you about it first, and you felt really violated. Uh, that was real painful for you.

Lyle: Yeah, and the worst thing about it was, for the- uh…you know, there’s so much uh…it could be something- it’s just like- just like the tragedy of the family, it could be another tragedy if we don’t be very close because uh, and tell each other things first and so on, and trust that we care. It’s very hard for us to do care, we’ve been taught to deal with it ourselves and then go a roundabout way and let up when it’s necessary. And if he feels it’s really important for me to get this, he’ll push that for me, but without me really knowing the real reason why he’s pushing for me, that he loves me or whatever, and then we’ll get real stubborn and hate each other about some little issue that I’d wish, uh, we wouldn’t. You know, I figure he’ll think, or I will figure it with my girlfriend more over an issue than argue with himself uh, or if- I’m very conscious of if he takes sides with somebody else over myself, and then I’ll say, well, who are you, you’re not- you don’t care, and uh, it’s easy for that to happen, and uh, that’s something that would be great if it could be worked out about. We’ve sort of worked out some strange relationship where we can convey that, like you said, without having to say it face to face.

Oziel: Why don’t you say it face to face right now? What are you- Why are you closing up?

Erik: Because we’ve never been taught to.

Oziel: Well why not? Give it a try, give it a try-

Erik: Well because we’ve never been taught to. And- no-

Oziel: Erik-

Erik: No-

Oziel: Erik-

Erik: I’d rather- I feel uncomfortable, I’d rather not.

Oziel: Erik- Erik, wait. What am I here for? Aren’t we trying to-

Erik: It’s only that- It seems like I can say it to almost anyone else except for my family.

Oziel: Okay, but wait a minute. You’re trying to learn how to handle that, and trying to undo that. You’ve got one family member right here-

Lyle: I think it comes- stems from- the reluctance stems and the mind stems from a pride issue, that he’s still afraid that I may not feel the same way and that we’ll fight over- because of it. Because that’s the way (unintelligible)-

Oziel: Do you love him?

Lyle: Yeah I love him very very much.

Oziel: Can- can you turn a little more towards him?

Erik: (unintelligible)

Oziel: Oh god, come on, you can do this. I know you can-

Lyle: We hate that hugging shit by the way, we fucking hate that shit.

Oziel: You know what, I don’t care.

Lyle: I know.

Oziel: I don’t care if you do. Just cause you said that. Come on. No, you know what, you’re going to have trouble with this-

Lyle: Alright alright alright alright.

(sounds of slapping each other’s backs as they hug)

Oziel: You did it, you did it. And it was hard. All the stuff that happened, if you want to reverse the fact that you couldn’t be close, if you let me, okay, what I want- what I want to- what I want to do if you let me, and you trust each other enough and you trust me enough- I don’t want to have this be something where we’re doing something that has to do with, you know, legally protecting you, because that’s not what we’re doing here. What we’re really doing is trying to, to help you, help you undo what happened and help you create what never got created, so that, you know, what happened happened for a reason, and that you now can create something between the two of you that was supposed to have been there to begin with. Because you’re what you have left, uh, you’re your family now and, you know, you don’t want, you don’t want to be a victim anymore of what happened. And I know how much Erik loves you because when you’re not here- is it okay if I tell him that? Is that alright? He just nodded his head yes. Um, he told me that, um, if something happened, if anything happened and one of you had to die, he would much rather it be him than you. He would much rather that, you know, someone- if something happened to him, uh, he doesn’t even- Erik’s got all kinds of problems with having anything to do with any money and anything as a result of all this. Uh, feeling real real guilty and badly about it and he’s had all kinds of difficulties with it. And, you know, he said to me over and over again how much he loves you and how much he would do anything for you, you know, including (unintelligible). It was at the point of (unintelligible) rather it be him. And I know that it’s not easy for Erik to tell you that, or he would, but you know what, talk about- you were talking about you being real sad about your mom, but it would be just as sad if the two of you, when you get to the place where-

Lyle: I agree- I feel like that almost has happened a couple times, obviously it happened twice, once where I was depressed. I could never really convey, and I was close to suicide, and thought it would be the best way out and a nice way out. And uh, uh…wishing that somebody would be good enough to have me killed, and uh, then there was a ti- uh, then Erik also, going through a period where he ne- he never expressed it to me, me saying that I was in Princeton, was going to stay in Princeton and go to school and not be part of the tennis tour, would be emotionally devastating to himself, and his reaction is okay fine, if that’s what you want to do, do it, I don’t think it’s a problem. And that’s it, and me actually being hurt by the fact that he didn’t care enough to say that he wishes I was on the tour, and so we both walk away majorly depressed. That he doesn’t care if I’m on the tour or not, he just thinks it’s the wrong decision intellectually, and uh, he’s not gonna get up to it and he doesn’t care, and uh, you know that- and it could lead to his suicide, and uh, you know, just like, uh, you know, it led my mother. And uh…and I still think Mom’s was a suicide because I- you know, I feel that in her letters to Erik and I, she gave me the permission. The burden seemed to continually be handed to me. Erik handed me it to talk to Mom, uh, Dad handed a lot of things to me, uh…to sort of- she had given me permission to, to, to, to please carry out her suicide, and that it was obvious that she had decided in her own mind, she wants to die, she can’t do it, uh…and she doesn’t want to talk about it and there’s nothing that I can do to help her. There’s nothing anyone else can do, and she- and she very much doesn’t want anyone else to know. Doesn’t want me to go to her uncle Brian or- if I look back I wish I would have done, and just said- I mean I feel like if I would have said to Uncle Brian, this is the situation, he would have done something. I, I feel that- I have a lot of anger toward my relatives, my uncles, my aunts, my uncle Carlos and Aunt Terry, who knew about what was happening to my mother and did nothing. I just think that they were cowards, that what Erik and I did took courage beyond belief, beyond, beyond strength. There was no way I was going to make a decision to kill my mother without Erik’s consent. I was- I didn’t even want to influence him in that issue. I just let him sleep on it for a couple days because uh, I didn’t, I, I, I’m in a very, uh good position to influence Erik on a lot of things, because he knows that I care on a whole number of issues, and I can talk eloquently or whatever. And uh, but when it came to that issue I wanted nothing to do with it. It had to be his own personal issue, if he felt the same way I did about killing Mom. And you know, I, I feel angry toward my relatives. Why didn’t you do something when you knew what was going on and I didn’t, and you know, when I found out, you know, I did something about it. I did what I thought my mother would want me to do which is can you kill me. And I can’t, you know and I just couldn’t just kill my mom. That would be ridiculous. I wanted to get rid of the source. I couldn’t live with that, nobody could. And uh, and in a way, I’m happy that people say afterwards, you know, there’s no way that your mother could have lived without your dad. I’m glad, at least my mom’s side of the family says, I’m glad that uh, if your dad was going to be killed for business reasons that they were both killed. Even knowing what I know about it all and the people that do know it all, my mom’s side doesn’t, they think it’s because they loved each other so much, but my mom’s side of the family, Sylvia and a few other people that have read some of the letters, that know some of the stuff, uh, feel the same way, that she was just- she couldn’t have lived. She wouldn’t have wanted to live. Uh, she wouldn’t- she wouldn’t think of it as I wished she would think of it, as I’m free, now I can take the money, go back to Princeton, I can recover, and remarry, which is what I wanted for her. That- It was only after that ceased to be an answer, ceased to be a way out, that it was very then a dangerous situation, where Erik and I realized at any point, sort of subconsciously, the go ahead was given to kill us, kill me before you leave and basically leave our lives and go your separate ways.

Erik: Was she- Were they rushed to the hospital…

Lyle: You mean after the car accident?

Erik: No, uh, when she took…no, that’s not true, when she took too many pills.

Lyle: When was this?

Erik: That must have been pretty far back, um…

Lyle: Was that in New Jersey?

Erik: Yeah.

Lyle: Back in New Jersey, yeah. Took the wrong pills or something, almost died, and was rushed to the hospital, and we were (unintelligible). The New Jersey stuff I didn’t realize what was going on. I was in high school, I was dealing with my mom on a daily basis, and it wasn’t as bad as when I was no longer around. She had something to occupy her time, all of a sudden she didn’t. Erik was not- I think that really, really worked. She didn’t know about the affairs then I don’t think.

Erik: She didn’t know about the affairs I think until she-

Lyle: And it was bad enough that she was really having a hard time dealing with her marriage just because of that. What my dad was putting her through, without even knowing that he was putting her through it for completely devious reasons. She was in bad enough shape and I was- and everybody- my tennis coach, who was sort of a psychiatrist for me back then, Brad Warner, would say, God I really feel for your mother, she opens up to me a lot and she’s just tormented by your father and I would hate to have her life. Her life is terrible. And, uh, that your dad is just a typical serious business executive, and he mentioned over and over that my dad could be having affairs and I just missed it entirely. I didn’t think my dad was capable of that, and… (pause)…but getting back to uh, what Erik was feeling, that I wanted to say…uh, we, you know, it would be great if we were able to work on it, because even- you know, our relationship. Because even the planning out of this, the reason it took such a short period of time to figure it out was one, because it could have happened at any moment. All the thinking beforehand was done really.

Oziel: You knew what you felt.

Lyle: Uh, we knew what we felt and we knew everything about that. Honestly I never thought it would happen, even though I had thought about it, uh, but- it was uh, it was done so quickly and so sort of callously almost because one, if you thought about it too much, the feelings of not having your parents around and so on would get in the way of what was more important, which was helping my mother, really. And uh, thinking about that and feeling for her- It was so easy to separate yourself, I’ve done it for too long, into your own life and I don’t want to deal with my mother’s antagony. And, I, I just- it was sort of a cowardice way out. And for one moment before I went back to school I had a chance, even though my life was going really well, and, uh- to show some courage, I felt and uh, help Erik and I, help my mother. And, uh, we got together. And it was the fact that we can’t communicate- couldn’t communicate together, and sit down and face each other and talk about the real issues, that it was almost done looking in different directions. It was just a little word here, a little word there, and a little word here. And this sort of things doesn’t- you don’t kill your parents based on a little word here and a little word there. It was obvious that we felt a tremendous amount of emotion. (unintelligible). It just took a little word here and there, almost as if a third party was dicsussing, and it was just a meeting of the minds. The time is now, it’s not a great time, I’m doing well, he’ll get ready to go to UCLA, we’re psyched about a lot of things, but we can’t ignore the fact that my mother has to live with this. And uh, it was that. It was- It was- Erik was- I mean I remember when we had to go down wherever to take care of an important issue concerning it, uh, uh, he said I can’t do it, I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta practice because I have a tournament coming up. It was- He was completely blocking it out and I was, you know, I couldn’t even tell him but I was feeling, you know- he doesn’t realize the impact of what he’s doing. He wants to take care of this problem, and wishes his life was the same and he still had normal parents that he can never have. He doesn’t realize that what he’s doing- There will be no more tournaments like that. There’s going to be no more. All the- All the little good things in a- in a relationship. And I think one of the big- biggest pains you have, is that you miss just having these people around. I miss not having my dog around, if I can make such a gross analogy. You know, whether I hated the thing when it was around, and I’ve given it away, now that it’s gone, I miss all the things that we- you know, we had a boating trip right before the incident, and, and- it had nothing to do with the main problem, which required a lot of courage, but uh we- I miss not having my father, and I- it’s almost worse after I find out more and more about how he was such a genius, and all the things he was able to do, and, and more and more about the agony of my mother that I- instead of her being a shell, I realized she was really feeling a lot of emotion, but I wish I could have now confronted her and discussed things with her that I, I can’t. And I didn’t know, and think I would ever have to do-